Since we're getting close to completion of the combat system itself, it's time to start talking about the content. So let's make a start with weapons.

Unlike the first game, which had four categories (Light, Heavy, Laser, Sniper), we'll differentiate a bit more along the lines of real life weapons this time.

The weapon types are all different in effectiveness, speed,equipment capacity cost, availability, magazine capacity and firing modes.
[list]

[*]Equipment capacity (EC) limits what items a character can equip, the higher the cost of the weapon the weaker armour and items have to be.

[*]Availability simply means that not every class can use the weapon category, trough there are two universal weapon classes.

[*]Magazine capacity limits how many shots can be fired before the weapons needs to be reloaded. Actions have different costs, which can become quite high for full auto.

[*]Fire modes limit what actions can be performed with the weapon. Only weapons with the full auto mode for example can lay down cover fire. The modes are: Single, Semi, Burst, Full, Special so far

[/list]
With the terminology out of the way, let's list the weapon types.
[list]

[*]Handgun
[list]

[*]Low effectiveness

[*]High speed

[*]Low EC cost

[*]Available to all classes

[*]Small magazine

[*]Only semi automatic mode

[*]Can be dual wielded

[/list]

[*]SMG
[list]

[*]Low effectiveness

[*]High speed

[*]Low EC cost

[*]Available to all classes

[*]Limited magazine

[*]Semi and full automatic mode

[/list]

[*]Assault Rifle
[list]

[*]Medium effectiveness

[*]Medium speed

[*]Medium EC cost

[*]Soldier exclusive

[*]Medium magazine

[*]Semi and full automatic and burst mode

[/list]

[*]Sniper Rifle
[list]

[*]High effectiveness

[*]Low speed

[*]Medium EC cost

[*]Scout exclusive

[*]Small magazine

[*]Only single shot mode

[*]Accurate from cover

[/list]

[*]MG
[list]

[*]Medium effectiveness

[*]Medium speed

[*]High EC cost

[*]Guardian and Soldier only

[*]Big magazine

[*]Only full automatic mode

[/list]

[*]Heavy
[list]

[*]Very High effectiveness

[*]Low speed

[*]High EC cost

[*]Soldier exclusive

[*]Small magazine

[*]Only special mode

[*]Needs special ammunition

[/list][/list]

Energy weapons , like optical or plasma weapons, are variants of the basic kinetic groups and share the same characteristics. The only difference is the ammunition and damage type.

As you can see the soldier has access to nearly all weapon types with two exclusive types. While the assault rifle is an all round weapon that's usable in nearly any situation, heavy weapons are specialist weapons for the use against though targets. These two exclusive types are also the focus of the soldier class.

Guardians have the option to use the big MGs at the expense of heavier armour and medikits or to go with the smaller SMG and gain more durability.

Scouts have access to the sniper rifle, which is the slowest weapon group in the game but allows the scout to deal with foes that would simply ignore small arms fire. It doesn't leave room for much armour or items though.

Psionics only have access to the basic weapons, and not much focus on weapon use as a whole. Still, with a SMG they can offer support and ease the Guardians load.



We don't have any fixed values at the moment, which is the reason for the slightly unspecific categorization. And as always it's just a working scheme. I'm interested in you input before we spend the nights to hammer out the specifics.

PS: I know that these are tangential to reality at best, the current selection was mostly formed by gameplay considerations.

Seems good to me, and indeed the distinction between energy weapon and normal weapon didn't make much sense in the first game, since the only difference is the type of bullets that are fired

Is there anything that a guardian can do that a solider cant?

And guardians cant use heavy weapons now? Its the iconic weapons for guardians! Like the sniper rifle for the scout.

Is there anything that a guardian can do that a solider cant?

And guardians cant use heavy weapons now? Its the iconic weapons for guardians! Like the sniper rifle for the scout.

Not in the weapons category. Though I've thought about making the MG a Guardian exclusive, since it's not that useful for the Soldiers role.

Guardians are a bit different in PS2 then in the prequel. They focus on defending the party, which requires full automatic weapons to lay down cover fire and drive enemies into cover. Heavy weapons do not help in that function, so they wandered to the Soldier class. Or more to the point the "Heavy Weapon" group from PS1 was split into MGs and the new Heavy group. The one half going to the Guardian and the other to the Soldier.

I can't point to any specific post, but somewhere jack and Aleema wrote that they would make the guardian the tank (heavy armor but not the top weapons) while the soldier would be the heavy hitter with less HP and not the top armor.



The reason (which makes sense, once you step away from PS1) is that the guardian is in front of a building/whatever which needs to be protected. He needs to survive until the reaction force arrive, so heavy armor is important. Soldiers make up the bulk of the reaction force, they need to kill the attackers, so better weapons for them.



Edit: ninja'd

Yes but that was AGES ago, even before I asked Anima to do the class design. Guardians now play a role more faithful to their class name

In the new engine there are many factors in play, is much different from the first game. The damage and battle outcome doesn't depends only on the weapon/armors, but on combat stances and various situations/effects. Once the playable beta is out you'll see what I mean

So Psionics don't use ampliers this time?



I'm glad energy weapons category was removed. Like the ampliers (although Psiconics real usefulness comes from their psionic skills rather than their standard attack), energy weapons in P1 were restricted to one damage type, which limited their viability against certain enemies. Besides, there were weapons from other categories that inflicted energy damage (including one of the best sniper rifles).



Also, what is the difference between single shot and semi-automatic mode?

No amplifier, psionics will also use normal weapons.

The fire modes change which actions can be used, single shot mode allows sniper type actions.

No amplifiers, psionics with normal weapons, better categories (laser pistol is a handgun, plasma cannon is a heavy weapon), cover fire. Yay! Very good, I like all this changes

Yes, the new RPG battle system is really coming along nicely, can't wait to show a playable beta

Might be too late for a reply...



What does "speed" mean on your list? Is that the time between shots? The time it takes for a character to be out of cover before firing? Something affecting initiative? It doesn't seem to be rate of fire, since you listed that separately.



I'm mostly asking because I saw the Assault Rifle listed as "Medium speed" despite having a full automatic mode, compared to a "High speed" pistol.



Also, what's the practical difference between "semi" and "burst" fire?



Is there a practical difference to the "special" mode or is it the same as "single shot" for heavy weaponry?

Speed is a character attribute that affects initiative and delay. Weapons with Medium or Slow speed designation will have a speed penalty.

In practice burst fire will have one attack more than semi.

The only difference between single shot and special is the actions they unlock. Otherwise you would snipe with a rocket launcher.

Hi, I have a couple of questione concrerning weapons. First of all I've upgraded Michelle's skill for off-hand Damage to tier 5 but when I snapshot with her the second instance of damage Is still multiplied by 0.4



It works like this both with a mix of SMG / Pistola and double Pistol. Is it intended?



Second, I'm not sure how sniper rifles work. I'm trying to maximize Accuracy on May Scouts (Joshua included) buy their crit hit rates Is almost the same of the other classes... The snipe Attack (the one that requires 30 in delay)Is almost always a wadte of time and doesn't feel as rewarding as the other high-delay shots of other weapons and classes.



I'm mostly spamming aimed shots and even though the damage is certainly there I feel like criticatl shots are not as much a part of the Scout gameplay experience as I'd like. If possibile I'd like to know crit chance formulas (it'd be nice to see them in the combat log) and, if I'm missing something, what I'm missing in order ti maximize the Scout experience xD Thanks in Advance, really enjoying the game!

First of all the info on this thread is outdated, since was made with another engine in mind which unfortunately was never finished.

So to get back on your questions:

1) I'm not sure if I understood what you mean? In theory the snap shot should work with only the pistol since SMG only have SemiAuto,Auto as attacks. But it's possible that something is going wrong, since dual wielding with different kind of weapons is indeed a bit of a pain to code with this system so something might be wrong

2) regarding rifles, instead I think they really kick asses. At least with Rebecca and Philipp, but even if your PC is a sniper should work the same.



Example, here Lisa is a Guardian using a machinegun:

https://i.imgur.com/zNLBcdV.jpg" style="max-width:100%">

70 dmg (albeit distributed in 6 shots) and 15% hit, 4% critical



Rebecca aimed:

https://i.imgur.com/y1Y3dZl.jpg" style="max-width:100%">

60 dmg, 55% to hit and 11% critical !!! Basically more than twice (closer to x3) the to hit and accuracy, at HALF speed of the burst shot



Rebecca snipe:

https://i.imgur.com/B2Alwqk.jpg" style="max-width:100%">

69 dmg, 68% hit and 13% critical, for same speed of burst shot



So yes I guess I could maybe raise a bit the critical on snipe, but not the damage, otherwise they'd be overpowered (they already are TBH )

However snipers play a different role than machineguns as you are probably aware. Machineguns are to tear down enemies armor, while snipers can finish them off (or their high damage lets them damage even higher amor enemies).



Last but not least sniper rifle have the highest critical (of course if compared to same level / rarity items), so if you do a critical with a pistol it will do much less damage than with a sniper rifle.

Ah, the formula is as usual a mess and rather complex but here it is:
[code] def ToCrit(pTarget,pUser,pAcc):
if pTarget.isEmpty():
return 1
i=75+pUser.getValue("Accuracy")-pTarget.getValue("Speed")-pTarget.getValue("Evasion")
i*=pAcc
i+=(pUser.level-pTarget.level)
if i<20:
i=20
return int(i/5)[/code]
basically with a base of 75%, add attacker's accuracy, subtract target speed/evasion, multiply resulting value by accuracy of the attack type, add the difference of levels (so level 10 against 8 gains +2%) and lastly it can't be lower than 20%

Ah, the formula is as usual a mess and rather complex but here it is:
[code] def ToCrit(pTarget,pUser,pAcc):
if pTarget.isEmpty():
return 1
i=75+pUser.getValue("Accuracy")-pTarget.getValue("Speed")-pTarget.getValue("Evasion")
i*=pAcc
i+=(pUser.level-pTarget.level)
if i<20:
i=20
return int(i/5)[/code]
basically with a base of 75%, add attacker's accuracy, subtract target speed/evasion, multiply resulting value by accuracy of the attack type, add the difference of levels (so level 10 against 8 gains +2%) and lastly it can't be lower than 20%

Nice! Thank you. Can I know what's the pAcc of the various attacks or, at least, the Sniper's ones?



Anyhow while I have two pistols equipped on Michelle with the skill "Dual Wield" at fifth rank, her Snap Shot attack deals the following damage:



https://i.gyazo.com/c6809079d969252673a0bf3cd5e7b92a.png" style="max-width:100%">



Is it inteded?



Anyhow the Snipe attack on Joshua only slightly increases Accuracy and crit chance while almost doubling the delay on his following turn. I almost never use it except if I really want that 3-4 dmg more in order to last-hit an enemy before he acts. I feel like an attack like that should almost double the crit chance while maybe taking an even longer delay. In general I feel like a Sniper in this game could use being even slower and having less turns but should crit much more often with aimed shot and almost always with Snipe, especially against slower targets. Maybe having all Sniper Rifles magazines with one or two bullets and with high reload time, but increased accuracy and/or pAcc modifier.



Anyhow I'm having lots of fun with the game and I'm finding it otherwise pretty balanced and delightfully challenging (on Nightmare Difficulty with Deafult enemy levels)

On Aimed Shot the pAcc is 1.3 (so basically 30% increase) while Snipe is 1.6.

However I think you're right in the fact that there isn't a big advantage using Snipe over Aimed, so I agree that I should change it. I will make some experiments as you suggested, maybe lowering the ammo and delay but higher damage (need to be careful though to not be able to kill ANY enemy with just one shot since could break some boss fights!).



Regarding Michelle: from the log it seems fine, I mean since she is dual wielding, in this case does a snap shot with the Pistol and the SMG. Normally the SMG wouldn't have snap shot (only the Pistol) but I decided to do it like this otherwise would make no sense to use dual wield at all - like I'm using two guns but I'll fire just with one. Seems a bit crazy



The damage instead not, if you maxed dual wield, the offhand should deal full damage and not only 40% so that's a bug yes, thanks for spotting it (I thought was working but evidently not, will check).



Glad you're having fun and finding the game well balanced - I never dared playing it in Nightmare myself, only Hard

I've just pushed an update that should fix both the problems you found!

I've just pushed an update that should fix both the problems you found!

That was fast and amazing



I'm still having the problem with Michelle, though. The off-hand attack keeps dealing 1 damage. In the screenshot I sent she had two pistols equipped with something like 28-30 damage. Her off-hand weapon dealt 5 damage multiplied by 0.4. Now it correctly shows 100% instead of 40%, but I keep getting a low value (like 5) for the off-hand attack and the overall damage is still 1 since resistances and defense are factored in.



The Dual Weapon ability states that normally the off-hand weapon deals 25% damage. In my opinion the value "5" is the equivalent of that 25% somewhere in the code which incorrectly multiplies the Damage value of the off-hand weapon before Dual Weapon comes in.



The fact is: even with this alleged big bug, Michelle is the top damage dealer in my team. Right now she's at 3780 damage dealt, with Damien second at 3730 and Joshua at 3195. They are the charachters I've used the most.



I've been spamming Snapshots while dual wielding with her and considering her high speed she's been able to dish out tons and tons of damage while wittling down the enemy defense. I think if she starts dealing actual double damage (with 100% output on the secondary weapon instead of 25%) she might become godlike. If the system is actually not working as intended I'd go from 25 >>> 100% offhand damage (with Dual Weapon) to something like 30 >>> 80 %.



I also tried to start a new game on 7.3.0 and the secondary pistol dealt 0 damage in the log (while having 3 Damage in the inventory menu). I also had 1 rank in Dual Wield.

Weird, yes it's definitely a bug. And I agree, even after I fix it the values needs to go down!