jack1974
May 02, 2014
Also this: Double Attack is a little gimped because you lose the Hide in Shadows buff between the first and the second attack.
Yes I know about that, not sure though if I can solve it
I think I'll need to change the description!
Oh and my hunter is once again doing more damage with melee attacks than with bow. Bow damage can't compete with dual wield damage. It's only useful for attacking the back row.
My ranger, who was supposed to be the tank, is in the back row restoring people's health and mana. My hunter has almost no use for a bow. I love betas :D
Haha maybe I should switch the two heal/restore of the Ranger with two skills of the Hunter
yayswords
May 02, 2014
Yeah sure, gimme email so I don't have to upload
I have a save right before I talk to the ratmen so you can reroll their inventory till you find an awesome weapon. Or you can do what I'm doing now and continue the story with the intent of trying again at level 6.
Double Attack fix: Just make it one attack for 250% damage, double if hidden, and call it something else. Same effect, no problems with Hide in Shadows
jack1974
May 02, 2014
Sent you an email to your email address now
Yes I probably will still call double attack but not make it an ACTUAL double attack. After all what matters is the damage
jack1974
May 02, 2014
I'm thinking to do this: swap the Hunter Hawk Eye skill with Ranger's Invigorating player. Having both HP AND SP regen skills to the ranger would make him look like a mage more than a tank
At least in this case the Hunter could stay in the back row to pump up the SP of the frontline fighters. I believe is a good change...
yayswords
May 02, 2014
Yeah, it is a good change. I mean it doesn't make things worse,
but it doesn't really solve the big problem either. And that is that - I hope I am wrong - you can't play nightmare without those two abilities. So yes instead of forcing one twin to be a ranger, it now probably forces one to be a ranger and one to be a hunter. They are great longevity spells, but there needs to be other ways to win too. Until there is, nightmare sucks no matter which class has one or both of those spells
jack1974
May 02, 2014
I got your saves, but I'm already uploading 0.74, which has a LOT of fixes, including that skill swap. I haven't tested it but I think should be more balanced especially after the changes I did to druid spells.
Anyway, since in later chapters you have a full party you don't need to base your impressions TOO MUCH on this first season. I hope to have the second ready soon, since you get to 6 characters early (Krimm and Riley) and then finally in the 3rd part there are all the characters available
jack1974
May 02, 2014
OK haha I tried one of your saves, I don't even know how you guys can play Nightmare
it's totally impossible for me, I don't even know how you managed to win before!!
I think the problem is simply in this encounter, and not really much in the classes/skills (as said later in the game you have more characters so is different than now). Will make this giant snow spider less troublesome
yayswords
May 02, 2014
Yeah I want to think longterm too. But I should like the first season nightmare mode to be beatable with some liberty in terms of skills taken. The real nutbusters should come when you have all the characters at your disposal; at that point foresight with skills and attributes should be necessary.
And I saw your post Anima, I really hope I am wrong and that someone is conquering 0.73 nightmare mode without relying on longevity spells and will tell the tale
I am hoping to read that 0.74 has dramatically lowered some defenses on nightmare mode
BTW I really like these mechanics like Vaelis' stances and hunter bonus damage if Hidden in Shadows. I don't think we had anything like that in Loren. It would be cool if all the twin classes had something like Hide in Shadows that boosts some of their other spells. Then you could take it even further and have two "Twinteraction" spells for each class. Like say druid has something called Overgrowth: slows all enemies for 3 turns. If your twin is a hunter, they will automatically hide in the vegetation and gain Hide in Shadows for free. Or they can use the spell for free while the Overgrowth is active. Something like that. I'm just ranting but it would be cool if they had something unique for cooperation after having grown up together.
I actually don't know how I managed to win before either, it felt even tougher on this playthrough. But I know it involved overzealous overhealing and outlasting the spider's mana
maybe stat derivation had something to do with the difficulty difference too, if that mechanic is in place.
jack1974
May 02, 2014
In the 0.74 I'm uploading, the attack/speed is slightly more, but defense is definitely lower. I think should make battles shorter
I've also tweaked the giant spider, before was red (3 levels over your party) and now is orange. I think just lowering his level by 1 was enough, now is hard but possible to win I think.
The mechanics of Hidden in Shadows and such are good indeed. I don't think can add more right now though, since the Druid has all the slots full with the single/area of effect damaging spells. The Ranger has many skills influenced by the type of weapon used though, I think that was cool too
Anima_
May 02, 2014
All of this is for version 0.72. Nightmare is actually quite fine. Though I agree with yayswords that the Hunter is too weak. One problem is that it starts with a useless skill. Hide in Shadows is useless without the other skills it allows. The bigger problem is conceptual. The Hunter doesn't do anything the Druid isn't already doing better. Ranged damage and burst damage both go to the Druid, Support as well. Though the druid spells are actually pretty useless for that, they take too long and are too expensive. And I need my Druid for killing things anyway. So in practice the Ranger ends up as the support character. That doesn't have to be a problem, but something tells me that this wasn't the design intent.
In general the skills are a bit on the expensive side. Most of the time you need to go eat or sleep after a single battle in Nightmare. That's not very fun and at least I think it takes away from what the SP mechanic was designed for in dungeon crawlers. It also makes SP regeneration values on equipment a joke. If a simple skill costs 20 SP, having one point of regeneration is useless. Of course it works in the other direction too, having 20 SP regeneration would result in infinite SP.
Enemies were actually quite fine. It usually didn't take ages to kill them and they did serious damage. My impression was that they're a bit too fast at times.
The most frustrating part were the shops. I didn't get a single healing potion in the entire chapter at the shops. Some items were simply to expensive to be useful, mostly the chain mails. And then they were pretty much no two handed weapons in the shops. Let's not even talk about good ones. That wouldn't be much of a problem in Loren, but with the fighting styles here it is a serious one. In addition all the two handed weapons were pretty much crap. The starting two handed sword is at 18 damage, but it's not difficult to find one handed swords with 14 or 15 damage and much better values in the other attributes. Finding a two handed weapon with more damage than the starting weapon was also really difficult.
In summary I don't think a completely random shop works very well.
The positioning system worked great, I was changing positions all the time. An indicator for the differences would be cool though.
In general there isn't enough feedback from the system. Most of the time I wasn't sure if what I did actually made a difference. Though I also rarely paid attention to the info panel at the left, having a stagger value indicator on the mainview might be a good idea.
This may sound quite a bit critical but I did have fun with the game so far, some battles were pretty challenging. Though the low number of abilities and skill uses do limit how much strategy can be used in a battle. The positioning system does make a huge difference though.
All that said I still stand by my previous post. Don't rush balance changes. Collect reports from different people and sessions first. Otherwise everyone will talk about a different version and some things are changed that were only a problem for a specific play style or strategy.
Anima_
May 02, 2014
In the 0.74 I'm uploading, the attack/speed is slightly more, but defense is definitely lower. I think should make battles shorter I've also tweaked the giant spider, before was red (3 levels over your party) and now is orange. I think just lowering his level by 1 was enough, now is hard but possible to win I think.
The mechanics of Hidden in Shadows and such are good indeed. I don't think can add more right now though, since the Druid has all the slots full with the single/area of effect damaging spells. The Ranger has many skills influenced by the type of weapon used though, I think that was cool too
Actually I don't think that's a good idea. It will force players into yayswords turtle strategy even more. Generally the balance of offence and defence was fine for most enemies. (Though this might have been an effect of your dynamic scaling system. My balanced party might have lead to more reasonable enemies stats.) The actual problem was that some classes were to weak in the offence department. Vaelis for example was usually dealing twice as much damage as my Althea. And he was going trough most enemies like a buzz saw. Even though Althea was a two handed weapon Ranger. Though I do think she was gimped by the quest XP bug.
And I saw your post Anima, I really hope I am wrong and that someone is conquering 0.73 nightmare mode without relying on longevity spells and will tell the tale
That would be me. I didn't use that spell before level 6 and that only because you praised it that much. As a whole I'm quite unimpressed and I'd rather taken a different skill. It certainly works, but it's boring as hell. Though I didn't have the time to finish the season so far. Only got as far as the start of chapter 3. But I completed all the side quests that were available. Since that brought me to level 6 already there probably aren't that many boss fights left.
yayswords
May 02, 2014
Color me confused, I get destroyed if I don't turtle. I'm gonna try again with 0.73 then. If you beat the giant spider you beat the game practically so obviously it works. How fast did you kill it?
I probably "praised it too much" because I declared war on the pacing of the game and managed to invent a playstyle where I never had to go back and rest (or even use the tavern). But still I always felt enemies were too durable for any other approach than an overpowered outlasting strategy.
jack1974
May 02, 2014
I just uploaded 0.74 now, since fixes a lot of bugs anyway. But about your points:
In general the skills are a bit on the expensive side. Most of the time you need to go eat or sleep after a single battle in Nightmare. That's not very fun and at least I think it takes away from what the SP mechanic was designed for in dungeon crawlers. It also makes SP regeneration values on equipment a joke. If a simple skill costs 20 SP, having one point of regeneration is useless. Of course it works in the other direction too, having 20 SP regeneration would result in infinite SP.
Yes, I didn't want to make the SP/HP regen too much important like was in Loren, have some impact yes, but not a lot. Later in the game there are higher regen items. If you have two rings and a necklace all with +2 SPRegen that will change things, but I want it to be a high-level thing, not early in the game.
In summary I don't think a completely random shop works very well.
No the problem was in the definition
There is NO "HeavyEdged" or "HeavyFlail" or similar, so there aren't ANY 2h randomized items in shops
that's the only reason why you couldn't find one. I now have added it (sadly, I had already uploaded version 0.74) and voilà:
http://i.imgur.com/sN3Se3H.jpg" style="max-width:100%">
Though I also rarely paid attention to the info panel at the left, having a stagger value indicator on the mainview might be a good idea.
What you mean, beside the staggered condition? or you mean the bar filling up for the stagger value?
This may sound quite a bit critical but I did have fun with the game so far, some battles were pretty challenging. Though the low number of abilities and skill uses do limit how much strategy can be used in a battle. The positioning system does make a huge difference though.
Cool
Yeah right now is a bit like this, but later in the game things should work better (I did some tests with full party obviously). I probably even made this part longer than needed (I mean the sidequests), since you have few party members.
All that said I still stand by my previous post. Don't rush balance changes. Collect reports from different people and sessions first. Otherwise everyone will talk about a different version and some things are changed that were only a problem for a specific play style or strategy.
Yes, I have tweaked some values but from now on will fix the bugs but think carefully before doing a gameplay change. If an enemy in Nightmare is really too hard will change that encounter (like I did with the Snow Spider) rather than touching the global values, since that can screw also other encounters, so... better not
jack1974
May 02, 2014
Lol two new posts while was replying. Anyway version 0.74 is up with a lots of fixes and about this:
Actually I don't think that's a good idea. It will force players into yayswords turtle strategy even more. Generally the balance of offence and defence was fine for most enemies. (Though this might have been an effect of your dynamic scaling system. My balanced party might have lead to more reasonable enemies stats.) The actual problem was that some classes were to weak in the offence department. Vaelis for example was usually dealing twice as much damage as my Althea. And he was going trough most enemies like a buzz saw. Even though Althea was a two handed weapon Ranger. Though I do think she was gimped by the quest XP bug.
I think the problem was twice:
- 2h weapons frakked
so you couldn't get a decent one
- the traits minigame assigning both boosts to the first char only
At this point I'm probably going to upload the fix for the 2h weapon too since indeed is a bit impossible to play with a 2h ranger in current one. Just waiting a bit in case some more bugs shows up
Anima_
May 02, 2014
I think it was six actions from everyone. Though only at the third try and with a casualty. Unfortunately I don't have a save from before for it any more. I definitely did it before the Necromancer fight, that's my earliest save and only that quest remains active. Most of the damage was done by fireballs.
yayswords
May 02, 2014
Six actions from everyone? That would probably a record time just to survive for my ranger/hunter party. Do you manage to stagger the boss or something?
yayswords
May 02, 2014
This build is totally different. I'm not even trying to outlast now though. A very aggressive party. If something like this would have worked in previous versions I'm a bit ashamed to have caused such commotion
a battle with a fully rested party hasn't yet been challenging at all.
Anima_
May 02, 2014
I just uploaded 0.74 now, since fixes a lot of bugs anyway. But about your points:
Yes, I didn't want to make the SP/HP regen too much important like was in Loren, have some impact yes, but not a lot. Later in the game there are higher regen items. If you have two rings and a necklace all with +2 SPRegen that will change things, but I want it to be a high-level thing, not early in the game.
That's a decision I can support. Still the skills are too expensive in the beginning. Reducing the cost to two thirds or a half would still work just fine.
@ Shops
That leaves the potions though.
@ Stagger display
Yes. Probably just the percentage though, not the whole bar. Maybe under the health value?
@ # Sidequests
No those were pretty cool. Though pacing them out a bit more might be a good idea. Having all available during the first free period makes it seem like you have to complete them in that period. Of course I'd probably do that anyway even if it's a bit expensive. Bonus XP for finding all quests and locations was a good idea by the way.
@ # Skills
It might be a good idea to have a skill every second level instead of every third for the first season. (Read for the first six levels)
I probably "praised it too much" because I declared war on the pacing of the game and managed to invent a playstyle where I never had to go back and rest (or even use the tavern). But still I always felt enemies were too durable for any other approach than an overpowered outlasting strategy.
Ah so you belong to the miser players. My strategy was usually to get rid of the weakest link first, heal and repeat. This time I'm also going for a more offensive skill selection for Althea. She had Guard and the SP heal. Though I'd rather not loose Guard.
@ Spider
Yeah I'm pretty sure I staggered it. I also burned it and had it marked by Vaelis.
jack1974
May 02, 2014
That leaves the potions though.
Did you check in the potions shop (Shagala)? there are healing potions there
Yes. Probably just the percentage though, not the whole bar. Maybe under the health value?
I'll see, the screen is already quite crowded, will make some tests first!
No those were pretty cool. Though pacing them out a bit more might be a good idea. Having all available during the first free period makes it seem like you have to complete them in that period. Of course I'd probably do that anyway even if it's a bit expensive. Bonus XP for finding all quests and locations was a good idea by the way.
Yes I guess I can make them show later, but I didn't want to put any constraints to the player
About the quests/location I think I put wrong numbers in the checks, the right ones should be: 7 quests and 6 locations. Will update it on next update.
It might be a good idea to have a skill every second level instead of every third for the first season. (Read for the first six levels)
Yes that could be interesting, so in the end you have:
1 skill on start + 1 on level 2 + 1 on level 4 + 1 on level 6 = 4 skills when you're level 6. Then the others would be every 3 levels. I need to make sure to update the descriptions, but makes sense to give them earlier.
renke_
May 02, 2014
Okay, the spider on nightmare with hunter, druid and Vaelis (all lvl 3):
1. spider: attack. [ouch. my poor front line]
2. druid: nature's touch
3. Vaelis: throw axe
4. hunter: big bomb
=> won
