Sylrissa
Jul 21, 2013
So there is going to be less hetero romance than homo?
There will be 4 romances for both Anna and Arthur so it's equal actually.
Thats not what I asked, there is 2 hetero option and 3 homo in the chart, so its not really equal
Im not complaining, just wanted to know
So for example if Anna romances a Bisexual man, that is a homo romance according to you?,
There is two men and two women romanceable for both player characters, hence equal as I said to you before.
ValHallen
Jul 21, 2013
There will be 4 romances for both Anna and Arthur so it's equal actually.
Thats not what I asked, there is 2 hetero option and 3 homo in the chart, so its not really equal
Im not complaining, just wanted to know
So for example if Anna romances a Bisexual man, that is a homo romance according to you?,
There is two men and two women romanceable for both player characters, hence equal as I said to you before.
There is 3 woman and 2 man for Anna and 3 man and 2 woman for Arthur
jack1974
Jul 21, 2013
Anyway, please wait before discussing the romances since that graph wasn't updated (I think I posted an older one by mistake), so wait the "official one" by Fen
it won't be completely different but for sure there will be some differences!
ChaosMorning
Jul 21, 2013
Man, I was out of the house and missed the chance to be misinformed (and to see more characters, apparently).
Oh well. I can't wait a bit more...
FenCayne
Jul 21, 2013
OK, just to open this up for discussion and allow everyone to voice their disappointment about character X not being available for romancing by protagonist A
, this is the current party character list with nationality/ethnicity and sexual orientation:
Christina - F - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Ann)
Neville - M - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Arthur)
Roger Steel - M - Irish - Bi
Svetlana Ruskaya - F - Russian - Bi
Yu Mei Ling - F - Chinese - Straight
Hamilton Ruff - M - American - Straight
Abhay - M - Kashmiri - Gay
Anya - F - Kashmiri - Lesbian
Maelora
Jul 21, 2013
>I've thought about this a lot and as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, there's a real risk of people taking the personality of each character and assuming I'm stereotyping an entire nationality or ethnicity. This is certainly not the case; on the other hand, I do want to create memorable characters whom are not rendered thoroughly anodyne by political correctness. I can't stress this enough ... all the characters in Roger Steel represent no one but themselves. They are obviously products of their cultures (as imaginatively, I hope, rendered by yours truly), and carry with them some of the assumptions and biases of their upbringings, but at the end of the day they stand for nothing and no one but themselves.
***APPLAUDS!!!***
Thank you, Fen, thank you so much!
Don't worry about Political Correctness, just write the characters as you think they would be!
I love the idea of gay, tough Kashmiri twins! That's just so amazing!!!!
Maelora
Jul 21, 2013
>Christina - F - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Ann)
Neville - M - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Arthur)
Roger Steel - M - Irish - Bi
Svetlana Ruskaya - F - Russian - Bi
Yu Mei Ling - F - Chinese - Straight
Hamilton Ruff - M - American - Straight
Abhay - M - Kashmiri - Gay
Anya - F - Kashmiri - Lesbian
***HUGE FANGIRL SQUEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***
I'm Welsh!!! You see English and Irish and Scots characters in games, but hardly EVER see Welsh characters! Thank you!!!!
YAY!!!! for Svetlana and Roger himself being Bi!
REALLY love the idea that you can 'turn' two of the characters with sincere persistence!
I am gonna **LOVE*** this game!
Steampunk and gay romance all in one game... *swoons!*
ChaosMorning
Jul 21, 2013
Christina - F - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Ann)
Neville - M - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Arthur)
While I am glad these characters now are open to more than one gender identity (someone was kind enough to show me the original chart), I have a slight problem.*
REALLY love the idea that you can 'turn' two of the characters with sincere persistence!
You see, there's a problem here. Queer identified people are often subject to a vicious myth that they are constantly trying to 'convert' straight people into their 'lifestyles,' and the idea of 'seducing' or 'persuading' them to be 'bisexual' feeds into another stereotype that bisexual people have been 'corrupted' from their 'natural state' by the influencing of other people.
There are an
infinite number of other ways of going about a similar story (of a presumed heterosexual person realizing they harbor feelings for someone of a similar or same gender identity) without falling into such tried, tired (and untrue) tropes - for example while I am not a huge fan of the 'Only if its You' idea, it can have some truth in it, without falling into the uncomfortable idea of seducing/'sincerely' badgering someone into 'turning.'
Don't worry about Political Correctness, just write the characters as you think they would be!
This is also a
slight problem.
While it is certainly true that people of a creative mindset should not sway their original intentions and form fit what others want, when handling delicate matters such as race, gender identity and sexual orientation minorities all of these being groups that have faced persecution and discrimination and while I absolutely
applaud the Roger Steel writer and Winterwolves for being so inclusive, it is really best to consider the many factors that are at play, lest one end up insulting or inadvertently discriminating against another group.
Personally I believe that FenCayne is doing their best to be 'politically correct' (it's not a bad thing people!) and make the story and its characters really dynamic and without acting as stereotypes!
Now, that said...
I am gonna **LOVE*** this game!
Steampunk and gay romance all in one game... *swoons!*
Damn, yes it is going to be a sweet game!
*Please note that I mean no offence to anyone involved in this conversation, be it subject matter or quotes I reference.
P_Tigras
Jul 21, 2013
You see, there's a problem here. Queer identified people are often subject to a vicious myth that they are constantly trying to 'convert' straight people into their 'lifestyles,' and the idea of 'seducing' or 'persuading' them to be 'bisexual' feeds into another stereotype that bisexual people have been 'corrupted' from their 'natural state' by the influencing of other people.
I don't believe FenCayne ever used the word "Convert". Furthermore, in a homophobic society, it seems perfectly reasonable that a significant percentage of straights are in reality bi's who aren't fully in touch with themselves given how they've been raised. I therefore don't think it unreasonable that a significant amount of effort from the right person would be required before they'd seriously consider such a relationship.
ChaosMorning
Jul 21, 2013
You see, there's a problem here. Queer identified people are often subject to a vicious myth that they are constantly trying to 'convert' straight people into their 'lifestyles,' and the idea of 'seducing' or 'persuading' them to be 'bisexual' feeds into another stereotype that bisexual people have been 'corrupted' from their 'natural state' by the influencing of other people.
I don't believe FenCayne ever used the word "Convert". Furthermore, in a homophobic society, it seems perfectly reasonable that a significant percentage of straights are in reality bi's who aren't fully in touch with themselves given how they've been raised. I therefore don't think it unreasonable that a significant amount of effort from the right person would be required before they'd seriously consider such a relationship.
I did not say that FenCayne used the word convert, nor did I mean to imply that he said convert, it is merely synonymous with the idea of someone 'seducing a straight person.' It is more than possible that FenCayne has no intention of bring these subplots in such a direction and that my interpretations of their descriptions could very well be a misunderstanding driven by the unfortunate connotations the words used in the description had.
I do concede that many people who believe themselves to be heteosexual could later find out that is untrue - which is
exactly what I was getting at here in my previous post:
There are an infinite number of other ways of going about a similar story (of a presumed heterosexual person realizing they harbor feelings for someone of a similar or same gender identity) without falling into such tried, tired (and untrue) tropes
It is completely possible to do a similar story of someone (we're going off of Christina and Neville, for this example) to believe they are straight before realizing that is not true. I was simply saying that I do not like the idea of 'seducing' someone out of their sexuality, even into one that is more latent.
There is an implication behind the idea of persistently trying to seduce someone, with or without sincerity. These implications are not particularly pleasant.
Regardless of how it benefits a story or its themes (exploring discrimination can be done without the use of this particular stereotype, or any character/situation being portrayed with the use of such inaccuracies), I think using stereotypes such as these is a little crass.
jack1974
Jul 22, 2013
I'll leave Fen to reply appropriately, since he's the writer after all, but personally I know some people in real life that discovered/changed their sexual orientation, and ALSO because they spoke with gay people. I mean it's not much about seducing, but they simply could start as friend, good friend, and then realize that they love each other (like often happens even with straight people, they start as friend and become something more).
No matter what Fen decides I think he has the skills to pull it off in the best way possible
Anima_
Jul 22, 2013
I agree with ChaosMorning, the latent Bi entries made me worry as well. There is a ton of trainwreck potential in that setup.
The political correctness discussion takes the cake though. That buzzword has no place in a serious discussion. Issues like national stereotypes or tokenism are important if you want to do more then a thin vernier of pluralism. Washing them aside with pc is not okay. Avoiding tokenism and stereotypes usually also lets people focus on the characters as agents in the story, instead of on their ambassador functions if they are the singular character of their group. Or to say it different, if you only have one character of a group he becomes a stand in for the whole, pars per toto.
It'd be quite reassuring if instead of simply proclaiming that all characters are only standing for themselves Fen would think about how to enable people to see them as that.
Sylrissa
Jul 22, 2013
I think using Pansexual would suit these characters better if you are going under the assumption that the character getting to know the player well, and falling in love, regardless if they are male or female.
As Pansexual people are attracted to people regardless of their gender, but rather they love someone regardless of their gender or sexual identity.
There is 3 woman and 2 man for Anna and 3 man and 2 woman for Arthur
Looking at Fen's updated list, there is 3 male and 3 female romance options.
jack1974
Jul 22, 2013
Yes now is completely balanced, before wasn't
Sylrissa
Jul 22, 2013
Yes now is completely balanced, before wasn't
Yes I see that now, I wasn't expecting Yu Mei Ling to be the woman that is now the straight option.
I'm really interested to learn more about all the characters and their personalities, and Fen seems to be a skilled writer who will craft a wonderfully engaging world and characters for this game.
I'm Welsh!!! You see English and Irish and Scots characters in games, but hardly EVER see Welsh characters! Thank you!!!!
YAY!!!! for Svetlana and Roger himself being Bi!
I am gonna **LOVE*** this game!
Steampunk and gay romance all in one game... *swoons!*
I'm Australian myself, you see Australia especially done well, even less often, so I know how you feel.
And yes this game is really looking incredible, I look forward to each update.
Franka
Jul 22, 2013
It's refreshing to have a direct line to the author, but it's also a little worrisome. I hope the creative process does not get hampered by stuff like political correctness or pandering to peoples' pet peeves. Because all in all, I think the tidbits we're given are looking awesome!
Maelora
Jul 22, 2013
I'm Australian myself, you see Australia especially done well, even less often, so I know how you feel.
Agreed, most Aussies you see in games are kinda stereotypical.
Miranda and Henry Lawson in Mass Effect - while not very likeable - are well-played Aussie characters who aren't stereotyped.
Maelora
Jul 22, 2013
It's refreshing to have a direct line to the author, but it's also a little worrisome. I hope the creative process does not get hampered by stuff like political correctness or pandering to peoples' pet peeves. Because all in all, I think the tidbits we're given are looking awesome!
Agree with Franka. I have TONS of respect for Anima but I think letting Political Correctness hamper a writer really hurts the games.
Fen is correct in saying that he wants the characters to represent _themselves_, they are not avatars for their entire race or gender or sexuality.
I think that's one of the good things about Winter Wolves being a small game company - they can experiment more, do stuff that Bioware would be terrified to do.
I'm bisexual (I came out in 1988, when it certainly wasn't trendy to do so), and I most certainly don't need well-meaning straight people getting offended on my behalf. I don't see the 'latent' gay characters as being 'those evil gays are stealin' our wimmin!' but two characters making a connection that one wouldn't have initially expected. Fen said you had to be 'sincere' after all. For various reasons, some people don't acknowledge their own sexuality until they meet the right person - I was pretty lucky in that I always knew I was attracted to other girls as well as guys.
Yes, it _could_ be a train-wreck as Anima puts it, but I have faith that the WW will make it awesome. The games have touched on hot-button issues like slavery (Loren, Heileen) and they have been sensitively done. I really don't want the games made anodyne and lowest-common-denominator just because someone somewhere might be offended.
Taking PC to its logical degree, you'll have people saying 'oh, you can't have gay Kashmiri twins because Kashmir is mostly Muslim and that would never be allowed'. But that would deprive us of some great NPCs, because the gay Kashmiri twins sound _freaking awesome_!
I'm sure all WW fans are on the same side really. I'm just voting for a bold and refreshing treatment of the issues, rather than worrying about who 'might' get offended'.
Maelora
Jul 22, 2013
I'll leave Fen to reply appropriately, since he's the writer after all, but personally I know some people in real life that discovered/changed their sexual orientation, and ALSO because they spoke with gay people. I mean it's not much about seducing, but they simply could start as friend, good friend, and then realize that they love each other (like often happens even with straight people, they start as friend and become something more).
No matter what Fen decides I think he has the skills to pull it off in the best way possible
Absolutely.
We fall in love with _people_, not genders!
