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jack1974
Was an old antispam measure that forgot to remove, now works :)
FenCayne
A lot of cool and interesting stuff ... :wink:


OK, it looks like I need to manage some expectations for this game. :)



First, Roger Steel isn't going to be a serious work of alternative history in the same way that Heileen isn't the true-life biography of an eighteenth-century English girl. Although I hope you are not going to find significant plot-holes in the game itself, certainly the background isn't going to bear too much scrutiny. I certainly want to aid your suspension of disbelief, but I'm not going to go to Tolkienesque lengths to do so.



Second, despite the amount of space I gave to outlining US history in Roger Steel's world, in the game itself, the US isn't even a location (nor are the American continents, for that matter). However, a brief glance at this map of the US states by dates of statehood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_states_by_date_of_statehood_RWB_dates.svg) can be taken as a very rough proxy for the extent of effective federal influence at the time of the first plague (1836).



The devil, of course, is in the details, but bear in mind that simply claiming territory is not going to be enough if you can't defend it. The Indian Wars in our history continued until the Wounded Knee massacre of 1890, so tribes clearly felt they had claim to 'US' territory through most of the nineteenth century.



Third, for the sake of space, I omitted some details from my previous posts (I know there's only so much most people can read on-screen before their eyes glaze over). One of those details was that the meteors fell primarily over central Africa (Chad, Niger, and westwards) and the north-west coast, crossed the Atlantic over the Tropic of Cancer, and hit the US in a band between the Carolinas and southern Pennsylvania. Europe didn't get hit at all.



What hurt Europe much more was a series of fairly virulent plague outbreaks, and a couple of years of crop failures. The British Isles, being more easily quarantined from mainland Europe, having a sophisticated scientific establishment, and being economically diversified through its Empire and naval supremacy, managed to avoid the brunt of these crises. The main geopolitical effect of these misfortunes was to delay or even forestall entirely the reunifications of Italy and Germany. And if you think 'retconning' US history is complicated enough, try 'retconning' Europe without wiping the place out and starting from scratch ... :mrgreen:



Fourth, in our history, Japan was finally opened to trade and western influence by US Commodore Matthew Perry and the Black Ships in 1854. In Roger Steel's world, the US Navy in 1854 is a shadow of its former self, and Japan's Sakoku system lasted a few decades longer. In consequence, the turmoil that precipitated the Meiji Restoration never occurred and neither did the political and societal changes that led to Japan's imperial ambitions that influenced so much of our twentieth century.



Minor historical note from Roger Steel's world: Perry was in fact killed during the War of 1812 when a cannon burst during a brief altercation with a British frigate. From this seemingly insignificant bifurcation, flow a lot of consequences ...



tl/dr version – I'm making this up as I go along, but I hope the game's still fun :wink:
jack1974

tl/dr version – I'm making this up as I go along, but I hope the game's still fun :wink:

That's why when I write the storyboard of the games myself I always pick fantasy or sci-fi. No need to be historically accurate :mrgreen:

Jokes apart yeah, the game like my others will focus mainly on characters personalities and relationship and have the political/history as background/setting for what happens. Having read the first chapter already I can assure you that is fun :)
FenCayne

tl/dr version – I'm making this up as I go along, but I hope the game's still fun :wink:

That's why when I write the storyboard of the games myself I always pick fantasy or sci-fi. No need to be historically accurate :mrgreen:

Jokes apart yeah, the game like my others will focus mainly on characters personalities and relationship and have the political/history as background/setting for what happens. Having read the first chapter already I can assure you that is fun :)


Thanks, Jack. Looks like a tough crowd, though! :lol: I'm gonna leave through the backdoor before the veggies start flying ...
P_Tigras
A lot of cool and interesting stuff ... :wink:


OK, it looks like I need to manage some expectations for this game. :)



First, Roger Steel isn't going to be a serious work of alternative history in the same way that Heileen isn't the true-life biography of an eighteenth-century English girl. Although I hope you are not going to find significant plot-holes in the game itself, certainly the background isn't going to bear too much scrutiny. I certainly want to aid your suspension of disbelief, but I'm not going to go to Tolkienesque lengths to do so.



Second, despite the amount of space I gave to outlining US history in Roger Steel's world, in the game itself, the US isn't even a location (nor are the American continents, for that matter). However, a brief glance at this map of the US states by dates of statehood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_states_by_date_of_statehood_RWB_dates.svg) can be taken as a very rough proxy for the extent of effective federal influence at the time of the first plague (1836).


Yep, if none of the game is going to take place in the Western Hemisphere then the US doesn't really need significant development time.



The devil, of course, is in the details, but bear in mind that simply claiming territory is not going to be enough if you can't defend it. The Indian Wars in our history continued until the Wounded Knee massacre of 1890, so tribes clearly felt they had claim to 'US' territory through most of the nineteenth century.


Wounded Knee occurred in South Dakota however which is well to the West of Chicago, a city that you mentioned is controlled by the British Empire in the world of Roger Steel. So it didn't seem relevant since the Brits appear to have checked the Americans before they could expand out that far.


Third, for the sake of space, I omitted some details from my previous posts (I know there's only so much most people can read on-screen before their eyes glaze over). One of those details was that the meteors fell primarily over central Africa (Chad, Niger, and westwards) and the north-west coast, crossed the Atlantic over the Tropic of Cancer, and hit the US in a band between the Carolinas and southern Pennsylvania. Europe didn't get hit at all.


Very interesting.


What hurt Europe much more was a series of fairly virulent plague outbreaks, and a couple of years of crop failures. The British Isles, being more easily quarantined from mainland Europe, having a sophisticated scientific establishment, and being economically diversified through its Empire and naval supremacy, managed to avoid the brunt of these crises. The main geopolitical effect of these misfortunes was to delay or even forestall entirely the reunifications of Italy and Germany. And if you think 'retconning' US history is complicated enough, try 'retconning' Europe without wiping the place out and starting from scratch ... :mrgreen:


Yep, although Prussia, which would later unite the Northern German states, and the Austrian Empire (also a Germanic State) to its South, both wielded a great deal of power in 1836, and for decades afterward, with Prussia's star climbing rapidly, and Austria's fading slowly. Prussia is a particularly fascinating nation since despite being relatively small compared to the Russian and Austrian Empires, it was both highly militarized and highly industrialized, capable of defeating larger states through a combination of superior discipline and the very intelligent application of what was then advanced technology to military uses. So I'd say even if they weren't fully united, the Germans were still plenty powerful during this period, most especially when both Prussia and the Austrian Empire were in agreement on an issue.


Fourth, in our history, Japan was finally opened to trade and western influence by US Commodore Matthew Perry and the Black Ships in 1854. In Roger Steel's world, the US Navy in 1854 is a shadow of its former self, and Japan's Sakoku system lasted a few decades longer. In consequence, the turmoil that precipitated the Meiju Restoration never occurred and neither did the political and societal changes that led to Japan's imperial ambitions that influenced so much of our twentieth century.



Minor historical note from Roger Steel's world: Perry was in fact killed during the War of 1812 when a cannon burst during a brief altercation with a British frigate. From this seemingly insignificant bifurcation, flow a lot of consequences ...


LOL, that works. Poor Commodore Perry..RIP


tl/dr version – I'm making this up as I go along, but I hope the game's still fun :wink:


Alright.
ankewl
Will the game have moral ambiguity or will it follow the binary good/evil system?
FenCayne
Wounded Knee occurred in South Dakota however which is well to the West of Chicago, a city that you mentioned is controlled by the British Empire in the world of Roger Steel. So it didn't seem relevant since the Brits appear to have checked the Americans before they could expand out that far.


Doubly irrelevant since it took place in 1890, 54 years after my main bifurcation. In 1835, Seminoles could still cause trouble in Florida.


Yep, although Prussia, which would later unite the Northern German states, and the Austrian Empire (also a Germanic State) to its South, both wielded a great deal of power in 1836, and for decades afterward, with Prussia's star climbing rapidly, and Austria's fading slowly. Prussia is a particularly fascinating nation since despite being relatively small compared to the Russian and Austrian Empires, it was both highly militarized and highly industrialized, capable of defeating larger states through a combination of superior discipline and the very intelligent application of what was then advanced technology to military uses. So I'd say even if they weren't fully united, the Germans were still plenty powerful during this period, most especially when both Prussia and the Austrian Empire were in agreement on an issue.




But compared to the British, Prussian and Austrian concerns were still quite parochial. Also, Britain's interests included a strong nation at the heart of Europe to distract Russia and provide a counterweight to France exporting its revolution. In our timeline, Prussia wasn't interested in empire-building - in the British sense - until the latter half of the nineteenth century, and its industrialization was similarly later in the century. While not best buddies, it's quite feasible for Prussia and even the Austro-Hungarian empire to have mutual interests with Britain across a range of European issues.


LOL, that works. Poor Commodore Perry..RIP


Well, in our history he was only wounded, although a few of his shipmates were killed. I just gave him a little nudge ... :twisted:
FenCayne
Will the game have moral ambiguity or will it follow the binary good/evil system?


Although there is no explicit Paragon-Renegade system in the game, the options available to the player in conversation and action (skill-use) will show a range of moral values which will in turn influence how his/her avatar is regarded by his/her companions (some being Myrth-like in character, and some Chambara-like, for example). The morality system certainly won't be binary. However, this is really a topic for future Sneak Preview, so I won't elaborate now.
FenCayne
So, did you ever play Shadow Hearts?


Not sure whether the question was directed at me as OP and writer for Roger Steel. However, to give you an idea of where I'm coming from as a player, most of my gaming was and is on the PC. Then I got into JRPGs through the DS and PSP, and my first full-size console was a PS3, which I bought specifically to play some distinctly Japanese games like Shadow Hearts. Unfortunately, as it's not been converted on PSN yet, and as I haven't got a PS2, I haven't got around to it. What I have enjoyed on the PS3 so far are the more off-beat titles Resonance of Fate and Nier. Not sure how they compare, though.
Seloun

First, Roger Steel isn't going to be a serious work of alternative history in the same way that Heileen isn't the true-life biography of an eighteenth-century English girl. Although I hope you are not going to find significant plot-holes in the game itself, certainly the background isn't going to bear too much scrutiny. I certainly want to aid your suspension of disbelief, but I'm not going to go to Tolkienesque lengths to do so.


Quite understandable, though it seems a bit of a shame not to indulge in a little bit of wild speculation if you're going to pick an alternative earth history for a background... It also seems like you've spent at least some bit of time thinking about the consequences, and a lot of what makes this sort of setting fun is seeing someone's ideas of how some event had a wider impact. I realize there's only a so much research that can be done to make things 'right' (especially as the game isn't focused on this), but in some ways it's not really necessary to get things 'right' (not to mention, it's obviously not verifiable); a lot of the fun here is in trying to come up with rationalizations for why something happened even if there's no in-depth 'real' justification.


Minor historical note from Roger Steel's world: Perry was in fact killed during the War of 1812 when a cannon burst during a brief altercation with a British frigate. From this seemingly insignificant bifurcation, flow a lot of consequences ...

I think something like that is exactly what would make this work. It doesn't have to be related to the plot in anyway (it would probably threaten to derail it if it was) and can just be a throw-away line without any exposition, but it generates a hook for speculation. Basically, the Earth is the biggest source material one has available, and little bits of information could go a long way to leverage it. Accuracy is probably less important (in terms of fun) than things that are different but familiar; for example maybe you run into a short article explaining in part why there are airships instead of airplanes (Hindenburg proves to be a great success? Wright brothers die in a crash?). In 'real life' the viability of airplanes has little to do with the Wright brothers or the Hindenburg accident specifically, but that doesn't really matter in making such details fun to read.



On the topic of games that this sounds similar to, I'd probably put up Arcanum; not an alternative history Earth, but close, and about the right time/tech level.
jack1974
Played Arcanum (as well as all the other marvelous RPGs by Troika) and yes the world tech is very similar, with the exception that in Arcanum there was also magic, while in Roger Steel there isn't (at least from what we discussed so far). There's more mechanical/steamy stuff though :)
ankewl
Will the game have moral ambiguity or will it follow the binary good/evil system?


Although there is no explicit Paragon-Renegade system in the game, the options available to the player in conversation and action (skill-use) will show a range of moral values which will in turn influence how his/her avatar is regarded by his/her companions (some being Myrth-like in character, and some Chambara-like, for example). The morality system certainly won't be binary. However, this is really a topic for future Sneak Preview, so I won't elaborate now.


Very interesting. Can't wait for the reveal. :mrgreen:
jack1974
Seems that Loren artist can work on this game too (taking a small break from Loren 2 art, but we're at good point already). So hopefully this month you should be able to see the sketches/lineart of some of the characters 8)
FenCayne

First, Roger Steel isn't going to be a serious work of alternative history in the same way that Heileen isn't the true-life biography of an eighteenth-century English girl. Although I hope you are not going to find significant plot-holes in the game itself, certainly the background isn't going to bear too much scrutiny. I certainly want to aid your suspension of disbelief, but I'm not going to go to Tolkienesque lengths to do so.


Quite understandable, though it seems a bit of a shame not to indulge in a little bit of wild speculation if you're going to pick an alternative earth history for a background... It also seems like you've spent at least some bit of time thinking about the consequences, and a lot of what makes this sort of setting fun is seeing someone's ideas of how some event had a wider impact. I realize there's only a so much research that can be done to make things 'right' (especially as the game isn't focused on this), but in some ways it's not really necessary to get things 'right' (not to mention, it's obviously not verifiable); a lot of the fun here is in trying to come up with rationalizations for why something happened even if there's no in-depth 'real' justification.


Oh, I don't mind speculation ... I encourage it! :) In fact, that's half the fun of fiction like this - figuring out where things change, what stays the same and what changes ... and why. In case it wasn't clear, I really appreciate yours and P_Tigras' engagement with background story and wouldn't want to stop that. You are worthy critics of my elementary world-building and the game will be stronger for that.


Minor historical note from Roger Steel's world: Perry was in fact killed during the War of 1812 when a cannon burst during a brief altercation with a British frigate. From this seemingly insignificant bifurcation, flow a lot of consequences ...

I think something like that is exactly what would make this work. It doesn't have to be related to the plot in anyway (it would probably threaten to derail it if it was) and can just be a throw-away line without any exposition, but it generates a hook for speculation. Basically, the Earth is the biggest source material one has available, and little bits of information could go a long way to leverage it. Accuracy is probably less important (in terms of fun) than things that are different but familiar; for example maybe you run into a short article explaining in part why there are airships instead of airplanes (Hindenburg proves to be a great success? Wright brothers die in a crash?). In 'real life' the viability of airplanes has little to do with the Wright brothers or the Hindenburg accident specifically, but that doesn't really matter in making such details fun to read.


Yeah, it's the little details that give works like this depth, and there'll be a few of those ...


On the topic of games that this sounds similar to, I'd probably put up Arcanum; not an alternative history Earth, but close, and about the right time/tech level.


Yep. Arcanum was an inspiration, but one I didn't really follow because I thought even steampunk elves and dwarves would make the game a little too much like Loren. Plus those tropes are relatively 'common' in game fiction - for example, A Farewell to Dragons.
jack1974
Ah lol, I completely forgot that in Arcanum there were dwarves/elves! yes another reason why was better to differentiate it :)
Carmentis
A few questions if I may and excuse me if they have already been answered but...

1) Will there be romance options? (I HAVE to ask :lol: )

2) What type of graphics will it have?

3) Are you taking inspiration from Fallout and/or say Baldur's Gate (1 and 2), Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (1 and 2), Jade Empire or another source? (all VERY excellent wRPG's)

4) Will you be able to customize your character at all?

5) Will it have side quests and/or branching storylines?



Um, that's it for now, if I have more questions I'll ask if it's okay. XD
jack1974
I can answer some myself:

1) yes, all combos

2) Loren artist said that should be able to work on it :)

4) You can choose the "class" and gender like Loren, but for clothing/whatever not sure yet, since doing it adds more art costs which could be used instead to have more CG scenes or romance images.

5) yes



some of the replies involve going in details that will be revealed in later posts, so we'll remain vague on purpose :)
SpectralTime
It's three o'clock in the morning, and I'm putting off an already-late writing project even further. So, I'll be reading all of these posts one by one, and commenting as I go.



Also, I just looked up the new faction coming out for Warmachine, and I am stoked for some gears-and-boilers gadgetry.



...And, WOW. This 1936 is even worse than the ACTUAL 1936, and as the actual 1936 involved a world economy even worse than this one, rampant colonialism decaying in the worst way possible, and a Europe simply lousy with Nazis, that's saying something. Holy cuss, what happened to... to everything? How much worse could the villain possibly hope to make the world?



Also, why is Britain keeping her little brother down? No World War I to act as a team-building exercise? That one guy whose name I can't remember didn't carry that American flag through Britain to show that, whatever the governments felt, the people on the ground of both states liked each other? A poor understanding of export economics keeping both nations from becoming trading partners?



And, of course, the central question: will a party member be some sort of cowboy (or girl!) from the Great American Frontier, with a great big grudge against the British establishment? Intraparty conflict! Whooo!



...Hmm... maybe some sorta cyborg arm or something? Experimented on so they have a reason to hate the Shadowy Evil Conspiracy even more than the limeys? In that case, I hope it's a girl. To be uncomfortably frank, that's my robot fetish talking.
jack1974

...Hmm... maybe some sorta cyborg arm or something? Experimented on so they have a reason to hate the Shadowy Evil Conspiracy even more than the limeys? In that case, I hope it's a girl. To be uncomfortably frank, that's my robot fetish talking.

Heh funny you talking about this. I won't say anything more, since I want to leave this to writer in future sneak previews, but there's *some truth* in what you're saying :mrgreen:
SpectralTime
...So, probably American, hates on the British government, hates the Shadowy Evil Conspiracy worse, but otherwise not right at all? Call it a hunch. I'll drop the cyborg and cowboy bits first, if only because they are also the most specific.



Also, Bates! That was his name! I http://www.cracked.com/article_19995_5-stupid-bets-that-changed-world_p2.html.