Anima_
May 08, 2014
Speed has two effects, determining who acts first and alteration of action delay. For every 15 points above 100 the action delay is reduced by one (to a minimum of a third). It works the other way as well for every 15 points below 100 the delay increases by one. It starts at 100 to prevent negative values.
Agility is fine, the problem are the multitude of armour slots. Thanks to them the defence value becomes inflated in comparison to the other values.
yayswords
May 08, 2014
I see, I thought it was still like in Loren. That's a smarter speed system. However shouldn't the reaction be percentile rather than flat? This favors short actions.
Troyen
May 08, 2014
How is the initial order determined? Seems to be a bit random to allow for some variance, but I've rarely been able to go before mobs, even if I have a higher speed (albeit not by much).
I also was debating proposing that speed be scaled down so it has a more noticeable effect, but I was worried about the consequences late-game. Someone with +60 speed would just be incredibly powerful over other characters if the base speed was 10 instead of 100. Still, it is one of the least desirable stats - at least in Act 1. Maybe better gear in later acts will prove this wrong.
Skill has a secondary effect of offering + % Physical Resistance. Is the amount resisted calculated before or after the damage reduction from defense?
yayswords
May 08, 2014
I'm 99% sure physical resistance means resistance to the physical ailments: weakened, scared, slowed, tired, and maybe paralyzed.
As far as I can tell, attack and defense are both hit/miss chance and damage increase/reduction.
Anima_
May 08, 2014
I see, I thought it was still like in Loren. That's a smarter speed system. However shouldn't the reaction be percentile rather than flat? This favors short actions.
It's the same system Loren had. It works both ways though since short actions are impacted by low speed more. A percentile system has other issues though. Calculating the percentage isn't quite as trivial as it appears at first glance.
How is the initial order determined? Seems to be a bit random to allow for some variance, but I've rarely been able to go before mobs, even if I have a higher speed (albeit not by much).
Solely by speed.
I also was debating proposing that speed be scaled down so it has a more noticeable effect, but I was worried about the consequences late-game. Someone with +60 speed would just be incredibly powerful over other characters if the base speed was 10 instead of 100. Still, it is one of the least desirable stats - at least in Act 1. Maybe better gear in later acts will prove this wrong.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. It helps getting the first attack in and makes your turn come up more often.
Skill has a secondary effect of offering + % Physical Resistance. Is the amount resisted calculated before or after the damage reduction from defense?
This is resistance to physical effects, not attacks.
jack1974
May 08, 2014
I'm 99% sure physical resistance means resistance to the physical ailments: weakened, scared, slowed, tired, and maybe paralyzed.
As far as I can tell, attack and defense are both hit/miss chance and damage increase/reduction.
Yes is correct
As for speed I'm really reluctant to change it, because it really changes EVERYTHING. If I increase the Nightmare global values of enemies speed by 3%, some battles are impossible because all enemies act first
Skill could give a higher defense, but then with a full plate armor+high skill I think a player could become a bit too powerful, so need to be careful with it too.
The impact of speed on the combat can be changed overall, the amount of reduction it does to the actions, and indeed I've changed it in this game as Anima said, perhaps instead of reducing by 1 every 15, could be reducing by 1 every 10. This way the starting order wouldn't change, but the delay on skills yes.
Troyen
May 08, 2014
Skill has a secondary effect of offering + % Physical Resistance. Is the amount resisted calculated before or after the damage reduction from defense?This is resistance to physical effects, not attacks.
I see. The detailed skill explanation on the party screen explains this but the initial "pick your stats" screen doesn't and I think it's misleading.
Solely by speed.
So if I ever go later than a mob with a lower speed on the very first turn, it's a bug?
jack1974
May 08, 2014
I see. The detailed skill explanation on the party screen explains this but the initial "pick your stats" screen doesn't and I think it's misleading.
Well is written, if you click on Skill, it says that "increase you Physical Resistances by +1% to a maximum of 50%". Maybe will reduce the font size and make a list of them too? otherwise not sure how to fit that in
beside at that point the player doesn't know what those resistances are, even if I listed them..."weakened","scared",etc. I think is a bit normal with RPGs to do a few attempts, and anyway during creation you put only a few points so is not like if that initial decision can compromise the whole game
Troyen
May 08, 2014
I would say Physical Effect Resistances if only that didn't change the name of the skill, to clarify it's not increasing Physical Damage Resistance. The details of weakened, scared, etc are less important. But, it's certainly not an easy fix, since a three word attribute would not be ideal. I'll see if I can think of a different suggestion.
renke_
May 08, 2014
P.S. I can't bring myself to make a ranger/druid party. Hunters have gone from ticklers to mana batteries to the coolest class in Loren and SotW combined. Druids are, even if sufficiently powerful, extremely bland right now. I might be spending my day sporadically thinking of a remake of the druid skill tree.
Ah, please not. It may be absolutely pleasing for some players to have complex classes (as far as I understood the Hunter is mostly so great because one can combine skills and positions in interesting ways) but [as I said somewhere before] some players prefer straight (or boring, depends on PoV) characters. I would feel uncomfortable if all player classes require complicated skill interactions.
yayswords
May 08, 2014
I'm not gonna give that a serious go unless Jack actually says he would spend the time implementing the ideas if he liked them. But anyway look at the current hunter. You don't have to play it in a complicated way to win, not even on nightmare. Do you think it is too complex the way it is now, even if you don't try for Hide in Shadows combos etc? Do you think it lacks simple actions? I am not trying to sound mean, these are honest questions. I agree each class should be able to be played quite blithely, at least for the lower difficulties. But I do not think that the existence of depth is the same as obligation to use said depth.
Also look at the current second and third tier of druid spells. They are horrendously similar. My first effort would be to combine the four into one, maybe having it cause the kind of damage the target is the least resistant to if that's programmable. Then there's suddenly six slots open. I'd like something for mana management, maybe a spell that causes you to gain mana if an enemy dies. Utility spells. Nukes that do well by themselves but also combine well with other classes' abilities. More than just the -20% defense of shattering an enemy.
Some ideas I had just now.
Barkskin: Toughens an ally's skin, increasing defense by X (something small) and making them much harder to stagger.
Constricting Vines: Slows an enemy for 10 turns, but attacks against them reduce the duration by 2.
jack1974
May 08, 2014
Not saying that your ideas aren't good, they are, but as it is made now all the spells have a logic (divided by element). So either I remove them all as you said, and then I have to define 6 new skills and test them, and is not a small task
or I don't touch it. If I could add maybe 2-3 spells only, I could do it, but SIX is a bit too much at this point
I think we can talk about this again once I finish act 2, when all the characters are in party and you have an idea of the other skills. I suspect there are other characters that could benefit more from a skill redesign
yayswords
May 08, 2014
Yes I know, it's a tall order, that's why I'm not expecting a change.
On the topic of dividing by element etc. Yeah, sure, there is a small choice in the nukes. But for most part your first nuke is gonna determined by resistance and the second is gonna kill the target (if the first didn't already) if it's not a boss. You could also have another version of Purification that costs less but only affects one row, and there could certainly be situations where you would choose between the two. But what we have to ask ourselves is if the variety is large enough to warrant using up another skill slot. And that's where I think the druid nukes fall.
If I knew earlier that Bramble Coat was possible, I would have been suggesting stuff like this long before the first beta build. That spell has retributive damage, and it loses duration when you are attacked. Two mechanics I never saw in Loren, two mechanics I just assumed were impossible due to engine limitations. So anyway, throwing another idea out there (based on most WoW crowd control), not for any particular class so not giving it a name: Paralyzes the (non-boss) target for 5 turns, but the effect ends if the target takes any damage at all.
renke_
May 08, 2014
Do you think it is too complex the way it is now, even if you don't try for Hide in Shadows combos etc? Do you think it lacks simple actions? I am not trying to sound mean, these are honest questions.
It's mostly the feeling of "I miss something if I don't use all the characters depth, I read it all the time in the forum". And then I stop playing because I'm too lazy
jack1974
May 08, 2014
If I knew earlier that Bramble Coat was possible, I would have been suggesting stuff like this long before the first beta build. That spell has retributive damage, and it loses duration when you are attacked. Two mechanics I never saw in Loren, two mechanics I just assumed were impossible due to engine limitations. So anyway, throwing another idea out there (based on most WoW crowd control), not for any particular class so not giving it a name: Paralyzes the (non-boss) target for 5 turns, but the effect ends if the target takes any damage at all.
Well, it's a hack
if Anima saw what I did probably wouldn't talk me for a week.
I'm joking, but yeah I completely hacked the original engine to implement all sort of crazy stuff like hide in shadows and bramblecoat. So in practice when I started the game I didn't expect myself I would have been able to do such things!
Troyen
May 08, 2014
Do you think it is too complex the way it is now, even if you don't try for Hide in Shadows combos etc? Do you think it lacks simple actions?
Honestly, I did more damage without the combo. Not all at once, but more damage in the same amount of time as Hide in Shadows + X.
I'm also addicted to Agility now.
yayswords
May 08, 2014
Okay, renke. First point of order, fix you, second, fix druids
Aw Jack, I've been so unfair to you. Here I was thinking this stuff was possible all along and you weren't creative enough to come up with it, but instead you have been very creative and gotten around programming limitations!
Troyen, for Double Attack I could see that. For Critical Hit, no. HiS costs less SP/delay than another CH and it doubles the damage. However, I don't think it would be good design if it was always best (from a damage PoV) to always combine your moves with HiS. That would be dull.
Instead (beware, hunter design reverence incoming) consider this. Apart from my lovehateskill, Invigorating Prayer, the hunter has exactly three abilities (but I'll ignore Take Aim) that aren't HiS or break HiS. HiS itself is also a HUGE defensive buff, not just something that enhances other skills. So yeah, you cast HiS, and become very tanky. Next you can bandage for a double heal if you need it - admittedly a 50% heal (on any target too) is available to the other twin classes too, but Vaelis and I'm sure many other classes would drool over a selfheal. Then you can put up PB, still under that tanky safety. Now you have one turn left of HiS, and you can now make a big attack.
Also, burst can catch the enemy team unaware. Many "small" (yeah I know the numbers are big without HiS too
) attacks give healers time to counter the damage, the target can go defensive etc. In theory anyway. But with big synchronized burst damage the target just drops. And then they rez because it's too easily done
renke_
May 08, 2014
I'm also addicted to Agility now.
I'm with you - all my team builds were [2-3 class-specific attributes] plus speed and the difference is notable; at least with normal I'm often faster than my foes.
